KCC Notes from public meeting on the proposed Red River Gorge Development
We want to apologize for our live stream issues (due to poor internet connectivity) during the proposed Red River Gorge destination resort meeting at Natural Bridge State Park on Thursday. Luckily our partner, Kentucky Conservation Committee kept notes during the event on behalf of the public. KCC is a legislative nonprofit that provides a trusted voice in Kentucky’s capitol and throughout Kentucky, effectively advocating for the protection, restoration and sustainable use of natural resources for the equitable benefit of all citizens in our Commonwealth.
The Explore Kentucky Initiative recorded audio of the public question/comment period and we plan to release it as soon as possible.
View Red River Economic Development ‘s RFP and full concept paper here.
Kentucky Conservation Committee • Because the Earth Needs A Friend in Frankfort • 502-209-9659
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Meeting at the conference room at Natural Bridge State Park, Oct. 17
The facilitators included but not limited to:
Representatives from the Kentucky Chamber of Commerce,
James Anderson, Powell County Judge Exec.
Chuck Caudill, Lee County Judge Exec
Rick Stinter, Menifee Co. Judge Exec.
Below are notes as captured:
Judge Anderson, Red River Economic Development Board: glad we were included in this meeting. 3 county judges also included. Before any movement, need public input. Some misconceptions about how far along this concept is. No final presentations, just ideas. Will have more public exchange
Judge Caudill, Lee County: I’m the New kid on the block. Just been to 2 meetings. Economic Development is key. That is the focus, make the communities around us stronger.
Miranda, Tourism Director, Natural Bridge: a lot on social media, Judge Anderson and I talked about this, how a public meeting could be put together, include local businesses. Several key businesses, state forest service, state park, want to involve. Not intended to be secret, but have a fundamental group who can be key players. I wanted this meeting to happen to ask the questions, plan on having several more of these to make it beneficial. Focus on economic development for the entire region, not just Slade. Ask that folks keep an open mind.
First do Q&A, then public comments.
Dave Atkinson, Kentucky Chamber of Commerce: Want to thank Judge Anderson for the opportunity. Eager to have a dialogue with you. We all can agree this is a precious treasure we all need to take care of. Herald Leader editorial was good, balanced.
History of the project:
Dave Atkinson, Ky Chamber: We are a business association, try to combine the voices of several thousand businesses. We are in Frankfort. I’m president of the Ky Chamber, retiring in 2 weeks, but want to stay involve in this project. Back in 2011-2012, we were still in a recession, I had two board chairmen from EKY, Deaton and Jim Booth (coal). A lot of conversation of what we do with the decline of coal economy. Put together a group of 15-20 people that met regularly, Paul Patton, Jim Host etc, donated money, talking about tourism. AECOM was hired. Study RedRiverky.com is on there. AECOM looked at the entirety of Eastern KY. They looked at water parks, destination resorts, outlet malls, etc that have worked elsewhere. We didn’t ask them to conclude anything and they didn’t. Our project fell on the back burner for a while, went dormant for 2-3 years. But a couple things happened, stars lined up and decided to re-engage. Raised more $, hired HVS Group. They do Hiltons and Hyatts. That study is also on our website. They looked specifically at the potential for a resort. We have been looking at property in the area, we focused on 2-3, some property was put together at Slade and we put in an option on that property, option through June of 2020. That final site has not been chosen. Also looked at what could be done at this state park. Now we want to re-visit those sites, where would sewer lines, broadband, infrastructure work. We went to Washington and got a $500k grant from the ARC. To be matched by $500k from state government to give us $1m. With that we have put out an RFP, American Planning Assoc, 26 firms expressed an interest. We took that, had a webinar (80 people) gave them till Sept. 11 for proposals, ended up with 13 proposals. Proposals scored independently, got us down to 4 finalists. We brought those 4 to Lexington last Tuesday. We are talking to those firms now, all have done resorts. If you look at the RFP, we also laid out the phases for how we want that work done- collect previous studies from the counties, maps, data. Step 2 would be public stakeholder engagement. All those firms had to say how they would do that. A minimum of 4 town-hall meetings. We’ll start communicating with your emails today. Have to finalize the grant in Frankfort, want to sign a contract with one of these firms soon. Ky. Chamber is not in the tourism business. Our interest was economic development and jobs. But want to do this in an environmentally sustainable way, I think you will see this in the proposal.
Our RRED (Red River Economic Development) is one of the groups under our Foundation, a charitable group. Elmer Whitaker one who contributed, RRED holds the option on the land that attracted our attention. We have 3 bankers, Jean Hale/Community Trust, Deaton, Jim Host who put together the Ky Horse Park, 4 county Judges.
We have two representatives from Congressman Barr’s office. Hear to learn like we are.
Mayor of Beattyville here too.
4 plans are not public information yet. Glad to announce who was chosen at the end of this process.
Presenters Opened the Audience to Questions from attendee sign up list, then open to Public Comments. Below are Questions and Answers from attendees in the audience.
Attendee Comment: FDR was in eastern ky, wrote a letter back to Eleanor, talked about the beauty of the region. Was there to look at the mineral rights to the coal. Ky’s first millionaire, learned about the topography of EKY, got to be careful to look at that carrot dangled in front of you. Bought mineral rights, sold for 50c an acre to 10cents an acre from locals. Dangle that carrot, not really that tasteful. I have been here for half a century as a local artist. Powell County is being developed in a normal way. Be careful for what they tell you. Yellow Springs, Ohio is a heck of a tourist attraction and has not changed in ages. Do not want a large development, don’t put in the middle of slade and have it destroyed.
Attendee Comment: [Gerry James: Explore Ky Initiative]
We should be generating a dialogue about sustainable development and a Gatlinburg style resort could have a negative ecological footprint. Also any plan for regional growth should start with local business owners who have spent years developing the area’s tourism industry. I feel it is very important to say that EKI is 100% in support of rural development. The Red River Gorge holds a special place in my heart as it defined what I wanted to do with my career which is building a sustainable economy through outdoor recreation and adventure tourism as means for environmental protection. I have worked for, with, are friends with and on projects for many business owners in the area. I also lived in Powell and Wolfe Counties, so I am aware of the fact that many people commute outside the county to work. I’m aware that many Powell County residents are in poverty. I’m also aware that the Red River Gorge is a crown jewel for Kentucky. The region needs job for sure, but my worries are urban sprawl, air quality, overworking the forest service, and local rescue entities. Also if we’re using public tax dollars let’s start with upgrading and expanding Natural Bridge State Park to contemporary standards. Why was the money used in this way? Could it have been used for the local business owners already here? Ie through starting a fund that could be used for loans to local businesses, upgrade area to high speed internet, and sewage/wastewater systems.
Presenter Answer: [Chamber] Money is relatively modest. Government has loan programs. ARC is not set to do that, but they are interested in Economic Dev.- we have raised $150k around the table for the study. Chamber kicked in another $150k of staff time. Master plan, firm we want to hire is not going to build a resort. They will look at the market and see what would work. The resort is our concept, because we need one. We don’t have a French Lick or Greenbriar. We don’t have anything like that. In my 15 years I have met at a state park twice. We had no place to stay. State Gov. doesn’t have the money to invest. They did make an announcement here yesterday to add rooms here. We would have to take money out of the master plan- but we don’t have a developer yet.
Attendee Question: Why not start with this state park?
Presenter Answer: This park has 35 rooms, would have to build up. Would probably have to take this one down, still have a parking issue. Limitations. Nobody involved in our group wants to see a Gatlinburg. That’s not the goal. Second, we are interested in property outside the protected geological area. Met with forest service a couple of times, they can help us with compatibility. But we have to work with them on something like this. Also some people have perceived, do we plan to take over the state park? No. There is talk of ‘could you get a private developer to develop a destination’ and then put some $ into this park and make it a compatible lodging facility to work together? All that is in the mix.
Attendee Question: [retired educator, teaching in Powell County]. Are there provisions for vocational training?? Have a void of skilled labor. We have to have some support if this happens. Support for the local schools.
Presenter Answer: Yes, in our RFP, asked to look at the labor market of this region. Would have to be an assessment of the labor market. We have asked them to look at how to create a ‘talent pipeline.’
Attendee Follow-up: My husband was a wildlife biologist for the forest service- what kind of biological assessment will be done? Will they use local Ky talent? Encourage you to include local talent in proposals.
Presenter Answer: I don’t know what the arrangement will be, because we don’t know what the master plan will be. Teams that presented in Lex last week had people specifically trained in that area. We also suggested the corridor on the drive from lexington, want to address signage and entryway. This is a natural gateway to eastern KY.
Attendee Comment: biological resources are extraordinary, archeological resources, things discovered, most sensitive habitats, not found anywhere else in North America. Our most sensitive habitats are the clifflines, have to protect with a vengeance.
Attendee Comment: I would like to say, I run Ky reptile zoo I think it is astonishing that zero business owners here have been included. Can you offer assurances from this point forward to choose a representative on this community to serve on this board?
Presenter Answer: In terms of the RRED board, not sure about that, but there will be an advisory board created to provide advisory services to the master planning.
Attendee Follow-up: We don’t think that developing tourism is bad. Everyone has to be included or it will be a failure to everyone. When the project comes to be funded, there should be an option to buy in from this community. Funds to go back into the community. If the point is to drive economic opportunity then make these local people owners.
Presenter Answer: If this is done right, all boats rise. Really looking at a regional tourism opportunity. Looked at Pine Ridge Industrial Park, how to make that work for the local community. This meeting is a result of trying to get this dialogue started.
Attendee Comment: [Lane Boldman, Ky Conservation Committee and Sierra Club], KCC does lobbying for the environment in Frankfort. Because we believe that sustainable development begins with the local community, we defer our time to make comments at the front end of this meeting and will come back at the end because we believe the local community should be heard first. [applause- many taking time off work to attend]
Attendee Question: Funding- like with the Ark Park, Yum Center, if this doesn’t make it, taxpayers will fit the bill?
Presenter Answer: I don’t think there will be a development until there is a solid business project. Resources through ARC, you have some money being spent for this study which will hopefully benefit everybody.
Attendee Question: Will this create any eminent domain situations for highways that will impact local landowners?
Presenter Answer: This is very early, we don’t know where it would be, how it would be, don’t have answers yet.
Attendee Question: What about hiring developers?
Presenter Answer: We are talking to planning firms. Have systems in place to take all that into account. Down the road talking to developers on ‘how green is your process’.
Attendee Question: How about the climbing association?
Presenter Answer: Yes, they need to be at the table
Attendee Question: [Runs local cabin rentals], I understand there is an option on a specific location right now, can the location be changed based on community input
Presenter Answer: Choices have not been made, we made an option because 900 acres was a large parcel. Site would have to have scenic vistas, road access. When this planning firm is chosen and announced, hopefully in a few weeks, research the sites. They will study other sites for compatible usage. There is a conservation conversation that needs to happen.
Attendee Question: is there conversation here about how a 100 year plan is, and climate change
Presenter Answer: That has not been part of the dialogue.
Attendee Follow up: how can we make it part of the dialogue?
Presenter Answer: Your participation.
Attendee Question: [Runs social media group]. Have you been to the site? 17 natural arches there. Has the environmental impact been factored in?? We have adopted nearly every inch of this highway. The additional million people, litter, been factored in??
Presenter Answer: If you look at our concept paper, strong theme of sustainability.
Attendee Follow up: National park, state park two different animals.
Attendee Question: [Runs local SUP livery], most of my family from Breathitt Co- is there a possibility we could be working toward national park status? One way we could protect the area
Presenter Answer: I don’t know that process. Don’t know how to answer. (that has been proposed)
Attendee Follow up: can we talk about a possibility, all of the criteria. I don’t think it would be unachievable. This land is privately owned, the person that owns it could do whatever they want with it, this is amazing that we are hear to day giving comments early in the process. Stuff like this doesn’t happen overnight. Thank you for including us.
Attendee Question: [living and working in the area], no stop lights, no traffic, what kind of stop lights would you be putting in?
Presenter Answer: Really really early. Asked these proposals to define linkages, trail linkages. A pretty strong component linked to the region.
Attendee Comment: [Outdoor Recreation Business Owner] This is private property, have an option to purchase. Can’t tell people what they can or can’t do, my concern with you folks is what it does to all of the businesses- it is growing sustainably. We’re moving forward, you folks need to keep that in mind. Need a community benefit agreement, give you input and assurances on development. Gives you input on what they are doing. I worked 10 years for the national park service, don’t ever see it becoming a national park. Do the CVA agreement, everybody get together.
Presenter Answer: Proud of the local business growth that has happened here. We’re a chamber, very interested in what the local businesses do.
Attendee Question: [Local business person in Slade, cabins and coffee shop], just now hearing about it. You are pretty far down the pike. Slade, we do have infrastructure issues, taken us years to build up a business, all competing for low wage jobs. Have plenty of cabin companies, over 125 air bnbs renting out, all have problems keeping/competing for the same workers. Rock climbers from March to Nov, Slade is not the appropriate area. 900 acres, have to bring in major equipment. If you are going to tear down mountains in Slade, why not transport people from elsewhere? I want tourism, but you are trying to bring in way too much too soon. We all agree we want jobs. Why are you not looking at small manufacturing in Beattyville. You need to work with the community.
Presenter Answer: What we heard was to make the activities more year-around and more for families
Attendee Question: [Local long-time business owner] We have had a family business here all our lives. If you were here 10 years ago, not really blossoming. Last few years it has been. We have hired 40 people. Been a lot of hard work. Anyone who has a business here appreciates that. Feels like we are just now getting over the hump, seems like the carpet’s going to get pulled out for underneath us. That said I am all for tourism and growing. I feel if we lose small business with a large resort, lose that personal feeling. I don’t want this community to lose that. But do want this community to grow.
Presenter Answer: those are perfectly legitimate reservations. We will be respectful of that. Ask that the planner to be respectful of that.
Attendee Question: I’ve been coming to the gorge for 50 years, helped stop the dam. I have watched trees grow. Question- option run out at 2020, do you have option to renew?
Presenter Answer: Runs out Dec. 31 two months from now, then can extend to June of next year.
Attendee Follow up: then you do have a deadline, right?
Presenter Answer: We have a deadline and a decision point, make an informed decision, might have to walk away, we don’t know, May/June next year.
Attendee Follow up: Who is your constituency? You are not doing eco-tourism here. Who is your demographic?
Presenter Answer: Ecotourism is in the RFP. You’re talking about satellites around the resort. You can look at the HVS study for the demographics. There is some thought about a limited number of high end.
Attendee Follow up: Point I am trying to get to, who are you appealing to?? ATVs? What do they do to come to have fun? Are there ATVs in this plan?
Presenter Answer: All a part of the study to determine? Not written into our concept, but if you have an ATV park they might feed off of each other. There is no program set yet. Might be more of a conference center and destination wedding center. The HVS study has 150-175 lodging facility. Concept is that it would be better than anything in KY because there is no place to have….have not concluded….when you bring ideas to the table it will be considered.
Attendee Question: the jobs, question, are you talking about seasonal employees, not full time??
Presenter Answer: Can’t answer the question. We are on the front end of all of this.
Attendee Question: [Property owner, climber in Gorge. Pop up Ashram business] Whatever the Gorge would next become would naturally support the spiritual and contemplative theme of the Gorge. This project has a very different feel, alarmed. Organic, beautiful nature. One thing I would ask, as you are choosing this firm, go for the firm most able to really acknowledge the character of what exists here.
Presenter Answer: We want the firm who will be sensitive of this area. Technical score, you should say those things when it becomes time for a town meeting. I would not yet conclude. Has to be sustainable.
Attendee Question: I have property in NADA. I also run a tourism business in panama. What I am hearing, sounds like a world class resort, you could accomplish that, but several key features that would have to be included for companies like us to buy in. If you were to tell the planner LEED certified, Dark Sky Compliant. High School Training opportunities. Hospitality apprenticeships, we would want a farm to table restaurant, geothermal heating, solar panels, composting integrated, state-of-art wastewater treatment facility (very energy intensive) those are the type of things we would expect. Establish a layer of trust.
Presenter Answer: One of the people involved, built some hotels, first LEED certified in KY.
Open the floor to Public Comments:
Attendee Comment: [Campground Owner], on land that has been in my family my entire life. What studies do you have to show how it will impact people like me? No one has contacted my business, how would you know? Took me 5 years to get a grant just to get water.
Presenter Answer: We want an economic impact analysis. I’m sure there will be challenges. 3-4 year process.
Attendee Comment: [From Save our Red River]. Been some economic development here. Sandstone mine up on furnace mountain. That’s what I’m here- when that private property affects a million and a half people, and I don’t even have sewer. Help the people who need it. We take tons of trash out of this river every year, are you going to help with that?
Presenter Answer: one thing that has to be considered here, judges sitting on this board, all of us has have businesses. Bankers have businesses. Nobody wants to change the area. This is a discussion, I’ve been to only 2 meetings, but been here since 1971. The entire concept was ‘preserve this region’- they talk about protecting the environment, this study was to identify a group who would come in here to develop a concept that most could accept. If you come in with a chip on your shoulder, not going to change your mind. If you just step back and think about this for a second. Have argued with some of these people my entire life. This is a group of people who care about this community. Not a bunch of people out to make a killing or replace anybody. Have to keep a chip off their shoulder.
Attendee Comment: [Regional restaurants chain executive], represent different concepts- appreciate the dialogue. The people here is what makes this a success. To this endeavor is why this will succeed, every person in this room has been involved in sustainable business, your personal time is what makes it succeed. I come as a business leader, eastern ky native, outdoor enthusiast, grew up in eastern ky, wanted to pursue a career in hospitality. Had to go to west va and tn. Also started as a busboy. Whenever we talk about bringing in tourism, a lot of people get a stigma these are minimum wage jobs. Also a lot of good salary jobs. Allows for opportunity. The reason people come to the gorge is because of the quiet. This meeting is a true testament, if we are not challenging ourselves, not creating sustainable business practices. The thing I really enjoy, have a big name partnership. Infrastructure, hard to get. If you bring a bigger name in as a partnership, a lobbyist in your corner to help you do what you cannot do on your own. We have to embrace as part of the community. Have to allow people to come in. In your proposal, purpose statement, want to create anchor attraction, RRG is the attraction.
A place where you can play and work is what will sustain. Housing here is a huge shortage. Think about the growth that you want to have. Gorge is a place we have to share. Don’t think this area is yet ready for any commercial restaurant chain.
Attendee Comment: [Tourism Cabinet Representative]
I wanted to touch on a couple of things, one I wanted to touch on- as a director, we are part of different divisions throughout the state, travel to different areas, while we are there, go on field trips, see what their local attractions are. That first-hand experience. Need to have a minimum of 50 rooms, hold 200 people. This would not be an adequate lodging facility. A couple of other things, I did want to ask, whenever it comes to the study, how do we get our questions on the table?? Can you develop- competing with who is already here- are you moving people from one facility to your facility??
Presenter Answer: the firms that we have been interviewing are experts on what millenials want, boomers want. In terms of your questions, when a chosen firm comes in, we will make it public. Will have a day-long session, process announced. Branding analysis. Best way to promote this area. Questions are on the table.
Attendee Comment: one of the big concerns, can we have first pick at supporting our local businesses?? Contractors, etc. Local hardware. Give them the ability to be in the running.
Presenter Answer: We can encourage and you can encourage. Don’t know how that would work, would have to have some local assistance.
Attendee Comment: in your proposal, you all ask for development concept, “assurance”. How do we get assurance for local businesses as well? Would it be possible to form our own group, small advisory board to pick a representative to talk to you guys?
Presenter Answer: Maybe so. Ky chamber was formed, first project to make mammoth cave a national park. We see so much opportunity here. Need to have that dialogue on that advisory group.
Attendee Comment: [Local Business Owner] one of the issues is trust. Takes some research and understanding.
Attendee Comment: [Local Business Owner] find it unfair for a nonprofit to come in, put millions in – pay zero in taxes.
Attendee Comment: [Local Business Owner] This is a “gateway” but why are people not going beyond the Gorge into eastern Ky??
Attendee Comment::[Lane Boldman, Ky. Conservation Committee], we are an environmental legislative nonprofit to help citizens engage their representatives, and also attending for the Sierra Club to collect notes. I have no advance prepared remarks. I wanted to wait till last because it is important the Chamber hear from the local citizens. But I work in partnership with several environmental organizations and want the audience to know that I have taken detailed notes about this conversation and will be sharing with other environmental nonprofits. What is important for citizens to understand is that the Chamber is only one element, and if you have concerns about the future development of the region, and environmental issues, you need to begin engaging your representatives- county judge executives, state legislators, etc. For those of you who are concerned about ATVs, know that proposals are out there for such a thing, and that 17 eastern Kentucky counties have already expressed their interest in joining a public-private partnership to develop a Kentucky equivalent of the Hatfield-McCoy trail (WV). What is happening though is that many of these development initiatives are not connected. No comprehensive vision for what sustainable economic development would include or what you need. Need to be talking to your representatives.